Fireside Chat with Dr. Joseph Jones, Superintendent of New Castle County Vocational-Technical School District & Dr. TJ Vari, Assistant Superintendent of Secondary Schools at Appoquinimink School District

Wednesday, October 6, 2021

David Brazer, TeachFX: Your book, Candid and Compassionate Feedback, resonates strongly with my high school principal self from back in the 1990s. As the title suggests, it goes to the heart of providing feedback to teachers that actually helps them improve their classroom practices. This is where I want to focus our conversations today. Let’s begin with the importance of candor, or being candid with teachers. 

Joe, what did the two of you mean by candor? How do you define it or the act of being candid? How might candor be considered as different from honesty? Couldn’t we interpret candor as being abrupt or insensitive? TJ, why was it important to you to begin a discussion of teacher feedback with the notion of speaking to teachers with candor?

• Joe: Candor is being direct. We don’t want to confuse it with being “curt” or “rude” or at some level of insulting. We’re referring to no gray area and being very clear about what you’re observing and that the feedback you’re giving is SPECIFIC and USEABLE. Really it’s about an element of zero confusion with where they’re performing - an employee should never be unclear of their status. As leaders, sometimes we’re afraid to have tough conversations, but if we're looking to grow teachers and students in multiple ways, we have to. We’ve found that teachers appreciate when we’re flat-out candid with them. Of course, couch this candor with support, resources, and follow-up. 

• TJ: So many admin are told to build relationships first - we think this is a false assumption. The relationship itself is built through candor, and that’s where trust is built. “Confronting reality and clarifying expectations” - build a culture where things can move faster and everyone can express themselves, starting with candor. It’s part of a pressure support model: You can apply pressure to meet goals, but you also have to provide support that helps them reach those goals. 

TJ, the second big word in your title and theme for the book is compassion. How can administrators and coaches be both candid and compassionate? Aren’t you advocating for them to be straightforward with teachers?

• Sometimes teachers are resistant to feedback and if we’re too compassionate the message doesn’t get through. We use compassion, care, and clarity synonymously with each other. The difference between candid feedback and critique is where compassion is at the intersection. 

• We focus on the use of specific praise and professional dialogue. We have to give people tools and assume people are doing their best work from the get-go. 

Joe, I was incredibly impressed with your treatment of instructional rounds (also sometimes called learning walks) and how you coupled that with classroom walkthroughs. Let’s start with instructional rounds. How do they work and what is their purpose?

• The work and purpose of instructional rounds is a way for interrelated reliability and calibration. It’s an experience that we want admin to have so that they can become more skilled in providing feedback. Rounds are a way to level up with admin.

• It’s not what you see, it’s what you DON’T see that matters.

• Are we using language in professional learning and expectations of schools year in the classroom? How does this translate when we talk to the teachers.

• I found that when mixing experienced and novice teachers, novice teachers pick up instructional practice rapidly.

• Richard Elmore is a great source of knowledge on this topic. Just like hospital rounds reshaped medical care, instructional rounds can reshape instruction and student learning. 

TJ, please explain to us how what is learned through instructional rounds informs walkthroughs. I’ve been very resistant to the idea of walkthroughs until I read your book. The two of you do a great job describing helpful feedback that can be provided from walkthroughs. Would you please describe valuable feedback from a brief walkthrough for our audience?

• It’s almost like a quantitative and quantitative study. You take people and subject matter/content experts into rooms together (virtual or in-person)

• You look at the core - What is the teacher doing? What tasks are students doing? Are these things aligned to the standard being taught? What do we not see? 

• Through these walkthroughs, you begin to develop themes - maybe tasks aren’t rigorous enough. The themes that arise might be the instructional focus goal for the year. Oftentimes, schools create too big of a list for instructional goals when really it should be a focus of 2-3. 

• This isn’t about feedback, it’s about learning. Subsequent walk thoughts give us perspective. 

Questions for TJ and Joe from participants:

What works really well for how you treat teachers? 

• The same respect you would give to a kid, you’d give to a teacher. Don't confuse student performance and behavior even if one is affecting the other.

• Use the BDA framework - before, during, and after (follow up) approach to hiring, meetings, PLCs etc.Think through what you want to say before, what you want to happen during, and how you want to engage, debrief, or repair after.

How might you approach teacher behavior when it impacts student performance with candor?

• First, I’d base all conversations we have around clear vision and values that we live by in our school. When behavior is affecting performance, focus on behavior first - using “progressive discipline”. Address them right away or they’ll get worse, make sure they understand the problem and ask that they make immediate changes. 

• The key is to be systematic and timely. Leaders are afraid that having these tough, direct conversations will diminish morale, but it actually raises it. 

• You can’t be an avoider because problems don’t just go away. One hack that TJ and I have found to be successful is, once you have direct conversations, follow up again (back to BDA). Meet again the next day, and say “I know yesterday we had a tough conversation. I wanted to take a moment today to see if you have any additional questions, and make sure we’re on the same page”. This can save hours, days, weeks, and even months of heartache when you can have tough conversations right away. Relationships are improved in the long run. 

• Tip: When having tough conversations, have your palms up on your lap. This posture of acceptance will allow you to be far more receptive to have a conversation to lead people through challenging conversations. 

You can find Joe and TJ’s book here: https://www.amazon.com/Candid-Compassionate-Feedback-Joseph-Jones/dp/1138609153

For more information about Joe and TJ, check out their website here:  https://theschoolhouse302.com/